Anne: Hi everybody, it's Anne Duffy and welcome to Dental Entrepreneur, the Future of Dentistry's podcast. I'm so happy that you're here with me today and my special guest who I just saw at, gosh, I've been seeing you at a couple of meetings this year, it's really been fun, but let me tell you a little bit about him before we get started.
Oliver Gelles is the Chief Marketing Officer for OrthoFi, AcceptCare and the parent company OrthoBanc. Thank you Widely recognized as one of the industry's foremost strategic brand building experts, he has over 20 years of experience in the orthodontic industry, contributing to Armco's leadership in self litigation, continuing education events, and technology innovation for nearly a decade.
Oliver's recently published book on practice management called Level the Curve is a number one best selling in six categories on Amazon. com. He has a passion For the specialty, leveraging his zeal for data analytics and business acumen to lecture worldwide on many of the core concepts that prompted the creation of OrthoPhi.
Oliver graduated from Georgetown University, foreign services program with a focus on international business and lives in Southern California with his beautiful family. Welcome, Oliver. It's so nice to have you with me.
Oliver: Thanks for having me, Anne.
Anne: this is so fun for me because I've known Oliver a long time and I had no idea you could read somebody's bio because you're behind the scenes, not in front of the scenes like the speakers and the, influencers.
Even though you are an influencer, obviously you've got a bestselling book and you're speaking all over the country. But for me, it was really neat to hear a little bit more about you. And gotta say. Foreign Service program? I mean, what's, what's going on with that? I mean, how did you get interested in that?
That's so interesting.
Oliver: Yeah. Initially I wanted to be an ambassador when I was a kid and it somehow escaped me that in this country ambassadorships are by appointment. So my daddy didn't play golf with other daddies. I parlayed a really good education in international business into what I do today.
Anne: That is really cool because I mean, obviously you have to have brains to get in that business and a little bit of grit I mean, you know, you're going to be set in front of huge decisions. we're lucky in the dental industry that you came over and working for us and all of the amazing people that we have the privilege to work with on a daily basis.
So that's really cool. And Georgetown, did you grow up in. Southern California, or did you grow up in the D. C. area?
Oliver: Neither. I actually, I was born in Italy, and I lived in Rome until I was 10 years old. Then I I moved to Southern California. So my family's in the entertainment business, so I lived in L.
A. for a long time, and wanted to go back east for school. Wanted to see how the other half lived. Had a ball on the east coast. and then I am a weather wimp, so I came back.
Anne: Oh my gosh. I know, it's so hard to leave Southern California. Our son just moved to Charlotte from L.
A., and it's tough because, weather there is pretty sweet and it is a great place to live. But good for you. That's also very adventuresome do you speak Italian fluently?
Oliver: Yeah, I speak Italian. I speak actually four languages. I'm from living there and spending a lot of time in Europe.
But yeah, I speak fluent Italian.
Anne: Wow. I'm so jealous. I only speak English and it's not that good. So I'm just like, I'm always amazed at somebody that can actually Speak it and understand other languages. You're so smart. You're smarty pants. now I got a sense of you and, you know, your background.
So thank you for sharing that with, with us in our audience. you know, It just goes to show that you never know where your path is going to take you. What made you want to get into orthodontics? How did that happen?
Oliver: So actually I started my dental career in dentistry long time ago with a company called discus dental, which the younger folks probably won't remember, but it was an incredible learning experience.
so I can, honestly say that I have been working on delivering and developing elective healthcare. Since my career started, so we were pioneering, take home tooth whitening and professional tooth whitening and zoom and all these things and learning the mechanics of how patients accept elective treatment.
and then I was lucky enough to get an opportunity at warm co, which is the, global leader in fixed appliance orthodontics. And I spent a lot of time in clinical. I learned clinical orthodontics and how to drive interest in that. and then I found my, real love, which is helping practices on the financial side, understand their businesses better and how to drive success in their businesses that way.
So I feel like a real good rounding in my career. And I feel like I haven't worked in over 20 years because I love what I do so much.
Anne: Oh, man, that's super neat. So again, if you're listening, get into something that you really love and you feel like you never work a day in your life, right? That's cool about discus though, because I remember when they came out, I was an oxy fresh back in the day.
And so the fresh breath with discus dental was a bit of a competition and then the whitening was such a big deal. They were the first, right? Weren't they the first? Yeah. Yeah, night white to really maximize the profitability in the dental office and I was all for selling products in the dental office because as a mom myself, who wants to drive around and try to figure out which toothpaste to buy on the aisle or what have you.
did any of your Hollywood influence come in with Bill Dorfman. Cause I remember he was all over TV and he was a celebrity. I don't, I don't know. I haven't really kept track with him, but I'm sure you worked with him in the very beginning.
Oliver: Yeah, for sure.
He's the one that recruited me to come work at the company. And it definitely did not hurt that he was on extreme makeover every week and that's certainly helped. But You know, we did some novel and aggressive things in the dental industry that, prior to DISCUS, you know, were unheard of or were viewed as too commercial or too aggressive.
that, were very instructive for me.
Anne: Yeah, I mean, it's amazing when you step out and do something different, especially in the dental arena because it's so conservative and it's such a relationship business. Yeah, I remember like, Oh my God, he's on TV. And that was probably before we were even allowed to advertise in the yellow pages, right?
It used to just be, I I don't know that much dating me, but I just remember you couldn't advertise and he opened that door. The other thing that strikes me, Oliver, is it, You have actually gone from helping practices be profitable, and with your new book, I'm going to talk a little bit about that, but also having patients have the opportunity to get the care they need and want, and that's with AcceptCare.
And so I saw your presentation when I was at PDA. recently in Frisco, Texas. that's why I said you got to get on my podcast because I, it's so important to give that opportunity to the patient, to give them the understanding that, look, anyone can have this, if you really want it, we'll help you figure out a way.
Tell me a little bit about how AcceptCare works and different from other ways to finance treatment.
Oliver: so many people misunderstand it because it does include third party finance lending. And so, that's the, peg that everyone wants to place in their board.
And so they naturally want to look for something like the peg that they have. And so they come and ask us if we're a third party lender or if we're a third party network of lenders. And the answer is we do have that. But that is not the purpose of AcceptCare. It is a consequence. A percentage of the consequences that happened from using AcceptCare.
But our aim and our purpose of AcceptCare is to increase case acceptance. And the reason why those two things are not the same is that unfortunately, third party financing, especially the way that it's been used typically, especially in dental practices has downsides that people are not aware of.
So the way that that third party financing is even offered to the patient, even how they gets in front of them is in many cases already down the wrong path. In terms of the fact that typically a practice will prioritize and sequentially present options to patients based on their wants and needs and then based on what the lender is likely to approve.
And the patient is usually the third and last stakeholder in that pyramid of priority, whereas they should be the first, right? So practice will typically offer their painful option first because that's what's best for them. Everybody knows that's usually a big number and they're likely to get a no.
And then after they get a no, then they might present to them their third party lending option by showing them a QR code or having them fill out an application, for a lender. And we know from having, you know, AcceptCare going and actually seeing real results that there are still a lot of patients that don't want that, that don't want to give their social, that don't want to do that.
So even putting that as a sequential offer, that's Is also likely to get a no, not to mention the higher rejection rates from third party financing. You will likely get one or multiple no's from doing it that way. And then if you have a really great treatment coordinator, they might then be nimble enough to know what to do with that scenario and maybe put them into a different lender that might get a yes.
But in the meantime, you're frequently presenting a gauntlet of no's, right? The alternative to that is. Let's present to the patient a number of options simultaneously in a way where it's a presumptive close. There is no no, it's which of these works best for you. And many of those options will likely be lenders because of how many months that they are able to offer the patient and having multiple lenders ensures that we're able to cover more of the spectrum and there are some things.
So in many cases it will be a lender. In some cases, we're going to actually increase the practices likelihood to get a painful because of the way that it's presented or get four or five equals, which is a very popular option among patients, but it's all part of the same continuum, and it's happening at the same time, so there's never a no.
It's which of these is a yes, and because of that, we see massive increases in case acceptance because we're putting the patient at the top of the pyramid.
Anne: And they get to make the decision, the interesting thing, especially about ortho, because I've had orthodontics as an adult, I had an Invisalign a long time ago and had to get retreated again because I didn't wear my, appliance.
So I know I've been through that. I think it's interesting when you're going to the orthodontist, you're going because you want to. a better bite. feel like that is the whole reason you're going. And so to have them at the very end of that appointment, have an opportunity to say no, they wouldn't be sitting in your chair I mean, Everybody knows what that means. So it's just like, when you told me about this and when I was in your class, I'm like, that's just like a no brainer to put the patient at the top and then have them be able to track that. And you were telling me, I think in the webinar that you did, you can track that from the office, right?
So it's really easily done through Any office any orthodontic office?
Oliver: Right exactly and at the end of the day what people fear about this concept that we pioneered called open choice is They fear that the patient is going to pick a lot of things that are bad for the practice But what we have found is in aggregate not only is it not That way it is in many cases better for the practice So for example, you put yourself into a dental environment where understandably the need for cash flow is higher than a typical ortho practice Where they're used to in house financing, so that's understood but a lot of practices are far too focused on Which loan I want to offer because of the merchant discount rate that they're charging me, right?
So i'm going to offer this one because it's a lower merchant discount rate You But then at the same time, they fall prey to some influence that they shouldn't fall prey to. So great example, the lenders always do better when you offer a 0 percent promotional offer, right? Because right off the bat, they get to keep 10 or more percentage, of the loan.
their net present value is far better. And so they tell practices that you should lead with a 0 percent offer because that's all patients want to accept. We're finding that's not really true. Some of the cases, the patient will choose a 0 percent offer, but sometimes, many times they want a lower monthly, which can only be achieved through offering them far more months to pay.
And they're willing to pay an interest rate. Guess what? If the patient is willing to pay an interest rate, the practice pays far lower. So by offering all these choices, many times the practice will pay a lower MDR by offering these choices than to try to lead with something that they think is best for the patient or best for them.
And so this open choice rewards them as opposed to creates more risk. It's the opposite.
Anne: Yeah. And then the open choice. I mean, To get rejected and rejected, that's another no. I'm like, this is too much trouble. I mean, You've got it open. I love that. Open choice.
I'm just staying my own, personal journey, then it's just very nice. Like I know I'm going in as a yes, but And now I just have to decide how we're going to pay for it, and I'm going to get it paid for. There's not like I may not get paid for it.
And the other thing, in this day and age, Oliver, nobody wants to give out their social security to somebody at a dental office anymore. I mean, It's really tough because of cyber security and all those, crazy things that are going on in the world today. It's just like That makes you take a deep breath, stand back and say, go talk to my husband about this.
you know, see what we could do with the kids or with ourselves. So I think that just eliminates all those roadblocks and makes it seamless. Yeah, you're good and done. And this is how you're going to do it and all good. And there's no angst over it.
Oliver: That's right. It also takes a lot of burden off of the team as well, because the team members that are the ones having to stand in front of that patient and go through this, what is very often an awkward negotiation. It takes all the pressure out of that negotiation. It's not really a negotiation at all.
You're giving them a tool to help them find the number that they need. So many times. It doesn't get even that many no's into the gauntlet because the team member will feel self conscious and then concede and say, why don't you take this pamphlet and go home? And if you want to apply to this lender, you can.
And Let me know, what you want to do. We all know that you just eliminated likely the chance of converting that patient, but it was an easier way to end the conversation versus having the patient walk out feeling dejected. So a lot of times the practice just out of pure awkwardness, we'll let them leave without, you know, asking for the sale again in this scenario, there is no rejection so they can stand confidently and feel great that they are offering all the options that the patient will need.
So you can actually get a same day start. You can get the same day close without feeling awkward.
Anne: Wow. and again, it doesn't really matter. It's like you just getting it paid. So that's, that's, to me is genius. is going to carry over to all dental practices.
Oliver: You can use except care for anything. Obviously we have, over 10 years of expertise with over one and a quarter million patients started with orthodontic treatment. So we know this approach works for orthodontics. And so we, always encourage practices if they feel uncomfortable about using this throughout their practice, let's just start with you weaponizing this on your orthodontic business, which today in the world where we need more same day, same store growth, Adding orthodontics and building orthodontic practice is valuable.
So let's just start there. And then once you get a comfort level, a lot of our practices see that, shoot, I should just be doing this for all my elective cases. And then they really thrive.
Anne: Yeah. I mean, That just, makes perfect sense. I tell you. You're known as the digital stats guru, right? I read that on the Amazon report and review. What is it about the stats? So you're, throwing these stats out now, so you know that it works. And now it's just a matter of getting the word out to everybody. Just take a try. Take it for a spin drive.
Oliver: Yeah, absolutely. it's been over 10 years. I know that it works. I know that it's an uncomfortable change and it is a little bit of a leap of faith, especially for dental practices where this has not been a concept at all. It's a relatively novel concept in general dentistry. It's something we pioneered over 10 years ago in orthodontics.
So it's a little bit more mainstream there, but. I understand that it's a leap of faith, but the data does not lie. The numbers don't and will never lie. And so we have point of sale data on over 2 million patient consults. We know that it works. We know not only that it works in driving accelerated grow, but we also know that it does a really good job of balancing cashflow and risk, because we also have all of the payment data because Orthify and the orthodontics space does all the revenue cycle management.
So we have extensive payment performance data on patients. And so we calibrate what's on the slider tool to match that particular patient and to ensure that when you do this across all your patients, you're going to see healthy cashflow and we're going to be able to manage your risk to a minimum to allow you to grow.
That's actually where the data gets super interesting is when you start balancing these levers.
Anne: now I, I'm, taking it a little bit further. You tell me if I'm right or wrong. It sounds like if you were in office and you wanted to go fee for service, that this would be a very good tool to use for fee for service office because you would have the patient have an opportunity to pay for their, no matter what they needed, and they could pay for it instead of having to go through any of the other.
PPOs or what, all that kind of stuff. Does that make sense? Is that valid
Oliver: application? Of course, anytime that there's going to be more out of pocket, you need to be more flexible and more affordable. We certainly work with practices that have insurance that are PPO, that are full of network, we work with all of that stuff, but naturally the more out of pocket you're going to be asking.
The more flexible you need to be, the more adaptable, the more open you need to be in your choice set.
Anne: Yeah. And I think, you know, you give the good care and then this is just the last piece for them for the peace of mind. Tell me a little bit about your book though, because your book Level the Curve, it's bestselling, it just came out in 23.
So obviously it's new. I mean, cause we're only still, we're still in 24. Tell me a little bit about that and what made you want to write it and, Tell our listeners if they want to grab it off Amazon.
Oliver: Yeah, it was a project that was conceived about four or five years ago out of, my desire to give back to the industry that has done so much for me and my family.
And I had the honor and pleasure to co write it with my friend, Dr. Jamie Reynolds, who's a world renowned orthodontist. it has lots of real life, wet fingered clinician perspective as well. But basically the book is all about unwinding some of the long held dogma and notions that have been tying our industry back, not just orthodontic specialty.
There's a lot of universal concepts that can really apply and benefit of dental practice as well. But there are a lot of notions that are limiting that we wanted to blow up by having the data things that sound intuitive get blown up. So for example, one of the things that was done and held for almost a hundred years is practices were designing their payment terms based on treatment time.
So if they were going to treat a patient for, two years they had to be paid prior to taking appliances off. For example, that is the most classic old health thing, because they assume that once I take appliances off, the patient is going to run for the hills. disappear, hide out and never pay because the braces essentially were collateral.
That's actually not true. not even close to being true. And so that was actually tethering practices. So for example, in the industry, treatment times used to be far longer. So the treatment was more affordable and now technology, thankfully for the patient has gotten a lot better.
So they can treat patients often in 15 to 18 months with some really great technology. Patients want that. They want to get treated faster, but practices were not offering those technologies because they were afraid they wouldn't get paid or that it was going to be unaffordable. So just this notion using data to blow up these notions with a stick of dynamite helps deliberate us, right?
And so you can be more flexible. You can let patients go beyond. It's really about their credit performance and their payment performance and not much else. we've helped to make some ripples.
Anne: That's a great shift in the mindset and the book should be in every orthodontic school for sure.
Because that's just like old school thinking and we are, going soon to be in 2025. So
Oliver: that's right.
Anne: Very, Very cool. Very cool. So how do we get in touch with you? So I'm sure if there's somebody listening here, they want to get in touch and implement AcceptCare into their office and practice management system.
How do they get in touch with you and learn more about what your opportunity can do for their practice?
Oliver: Obviously the easiest is to go to acceptcare. com. There's a lot of great information on there. And if you give us a little bit of information we will send you some really cool case studies and information and set up some time to talk to you about your individual practice and your goals.
and obviously, we can set you on a really great path. If you are curious about the book and you want to talk about higher level financial things in your practice, I actually love speaking with individual practitioners. So I'm happy to give out my email address. It's oliver.
Gelles. com. at orthophi. com. Orthophi is our parent company. I love talking individual business cases with practitioners that gives me actually. a lot of great satisfaction.
Anne: That is super neat. I loved speaking with you and Marla at PDA. You guys are just logical.
You're so easygoing, not pushy. It just makes such perfect sense, Oliver. So thanks for making perfect sense to a very difficult conversation not only with practitioners, but with the practitioners and their patients. I thank you very much for being with us today. And I hope to see you on the road soon.
Any last words today?
Oliver: just excited and thankful for you having me today. And I really am a believer in this space. I'm really a believer in what we do for patients not just orthodontically, but dentally. And so I want everyone to think disruptively about what you're doing, because we could be doing a lot more dentistry for a lot more patients.
Anne: Yes. The easy yes for that. So well done. Thank you so much for being here. This is the future of dentistry. And if you're listening today, don't forget to keep doing you. Thanks so much, everybody. I'll see you next time. Bye. thanks, Oliver.
Oliver: Thank you.
